Advice you'd give to Sony to improve the Minis program

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Advice you'd give to Sony to improve the Minis program

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Started 1 year ago by Takao
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Takao
Member

1) Drop the requirement to have a title rated by ratings board. All this does is drive up the costs for independant developers who then have to force the costs to the consumer as well as slow down the ability to release titles. Instead, allow the community to vote on the titles ratings like they do in Xbox Live Arcade's Indie Games.

2) Allow users to rate titles out of 5, and have a top ten list based upon these user ratings. This allows titles from the smallest of publishers to get some good word of mouth and support

3) Require publishers and developers to send in some screenshots for titles on the store. Minis aren't allowed to have demos, so at least give us a taste of what we might get if we choose to bite. This also allows a bunch of the titles that are never formally announced to get some exposure, and to see what kind of game it is. Japan's store has screenshots

Posted 1 year ago #
JeremyR
Member

1) Is a double edged sword, though. It keeps out a lot of junk and reduces competition (which can make it somewhat more attractive to developers).

I think the ESRB needs some reformation, though, have a cheaper category for mobile games, as well as start rating iPhone games. I mean, it's pretty much a joke that Apple can directly compete with the PSP/DS, but not actually play by the same rules.

Agree with the others.

I think Sony needs to do what MS does with the Indie games - give you a 15 minute timed demo. This functionality is already built into the firmware for the PSP at least, it's just not used.

I would also say they need to make the program world wide, again like the Indie thing. PSP hardware is pretty much identical across regions.

Posted 1 year ago #
onmode-ky
Member

I actually disagree with all 3 of your suggestions, Takao. The ESRB bit, I feel, is important simply because these *are* commercial video games and should be rated like any other; my feeling is that Apple should not be getting away with their "We don't need to use the industry standard ratings" stance. I like the cheaper category idea, though.

As for user ratings, I'm not a fan of that because I've seen too many crap reviews/ratings at Amazon.com, as well as too many perfectly good products that ended up with terrible ratings at Amazon.com because they only got reviewed by 1 or 2 trolls. I don't have a better idea, but user ratings just seem like a way for popular titles to get more popular while more obscure titles get left even further behind.

Screenshots or video would be great on all titles, but I don't see a need for making it a requirement. It's already an option; if someone's not taking advantage of it, that's their choice. I have no idea why only a few Minis have the preview option, but it's already there, waiting to be used. If it's a matter of being expensive, then I guess one recommendation would be to cut that cost.

My own suggestions? Sony should not have had new PSP spokesperson Marcus answer "SOCOM Fireteam Bravo" as the name of the best PSP title under $10. In fact, the whole Marcus PSP campaign seems to have no room for Minis promotion, given that the main concept is to fight against phone games. Also, I think a Minis Spotlight weekly feature would be great on the PS Blog; not just for new Minis, but also older ones that are not selling well. Maybe include developer interviews (which they already do, but not in a Minis-focused setting). Just keep the program in people's minds, while also reversing the "Minis = sucky" image that some people seem to have. Seriously, there was a comment on the PS Blog once saying something like, "You should spend more time developing the game, and then I'll pay $10 for it."

Posted 1 year ago #
volcane
Member

One recommendation/request I'd have for Sony would be to remove the multiplayer constraint. I enjoy singleplayer games a lot and so this probably isn't a huge requirement, especially given that I usually play on my PSP while out-and-about and away from WiFi anyway. However I'd be interested to see what developers would do if they at least had the option of using the multiplayer capabilities of the PSP platform. For instance, I think some games would benefit from the ability to upload/share high-scores.

Posted 1 year ago #
Jon
Member

I think they should allow leaderboards and allow demos. I'm not sure how easy that would be though.

Posted 1 year ago #
(Grip Games) Jakub Mikyska
Member

From a developer's point of view I think that:

1) I believe this is not possible, even if Sony wanted. They agreed to uphold the ratings with all the games hitting their platforms. Rating costs are not a deal-breaker. If you want to bring a game to PSP minis, the rating costs are only a small part of what you need to pay.

2) This function is not supported in any part of the PlayStation Store. I am afraid that this function could lead to the fact that is plaguing the AppStore - lots of people give a game a zero rating just because they they feel like doing it. The great games can get over this, but solid games that just jumped into the Store may be killed by it.

3) Screenshots are required for Minis games, but they are only displayed if you browse the PS Store via the PlayStation 3. Hard to say why the function is not supported via the PSP PS Store.

What I would like to change is the level of support that the SCEA gives to Minis. If they gave it at least as much support as SCEE and worked on changing the image of Minis from "really really bad games, unworthy of PSP" to what minis are intended to be - "Small, 5 to 10 minutes fun, games", that would help a lot.

But in overall, I think that Sony did a great job with minis and the service is far superior to the XBox Indies games. Both in the quality of the games and the potential for developers to make money. Plus it is a stepping stone for developers to become "big" PSP and PS3 game developers. And that's the biggest plus of minis.

Posted 1 year ago #
blacklabgames
Member

Agreed with Zack on all points.

As a developer that started on XBLIG and is moving to minis, I don't mind having ratings as a requirement, as it's required for all other content in the PS Store. I've seen the quality and level of effort that goes into XBLIG games reduce as time has gone by. I'd hate to see the same thing happen to minis. Making developers more accountable for what they put out (by having to pay for a rating) is a part of ensuring that at least *some* effort goes into the game.

BTW, I've liked every mini I've bought so far...

L8r, Paul

Posted 1 year ago #
iam1ted
Member

Plants vs. Zombies on minis?

Posted 1 year ago #
evanac
Member

Honestly my only complaint is the lack of awareness on PSN as a whole.

Laughing Jackal is perhaps a larger outfit than many of the Minis devs - we've already published on DS and have 'full' licensed dev status for PS3, PSP, DS and others, but Minis have enabled us to take a smaller approach and divide the team down into smaller chunks, which is hugely attractive as we can do more in a same timeframe.

For example, Stellar Attack and Vibes were done simultaneously by two different teams set up purely for those projects' lengths.

I have to say I agree with the idea of a ratings system, but overall I feel the restriction regarding ratings etc. do keep a lot of the rubbish we see on iPhone off the format, which is only a good thing when exposure is already low.

Better structure on the PSN Store and user ratings are my only suggestions. Sony need to organise the store better and make it clear that Minis work on both PSP and PS3 - many users don't know this.

They could also do more to expose Minis on their various websites and blogs via dedicated coverage, as one other user also said. I think you'll find devs will fall over themselves to provide content for this!

Sorry for the long post!

Posted 1 year ago #
richicon
Member

Actually acknowledging Minis exist might be a start - there is no mention or listings of Minis on the US Playstation store website - or none that I could find!

SOA seem very dismissive of Minis.

Posted 1 year ago #
blacklabgames
Member

SCEA must have a very different approach to SCEE. I'm in Australia, which is covered by SCEE, and when I look at the PS Store, minis are on the first page, whether I'm browsing from Media Go or my PSP.

Posted 1 year ago #
FuturLab
Member

My guess is Sony (both SCEA and SCEE) will make a much bigger deal of minis once there are some really stand out exclusive titles in the category. At the moment there are a lot of straight ports, and a lot of games that are way under par for the PlayStation brand. The platform needs more original titles of high quality, and when I say high quality, I mean titles that are designed specifically for the platform, and are therefore polished and well rounded in all aspects with respect to the category's limitations. Triple A minis, if you like.

If developers were to give the platform more games like Monsters (Probably) Stole My Princess; designed specifically for the platform, and Sony had at least 20 of these, you can bet they'd be pushing them a lot harder.

From what I've read online, minis are generally regarded as 'a bunch of crap, unoriginal games' by the average PlayStation user.

Of course there are some good games too, but my guess is there's not enough critical mass for Sony to pour their marketing efforts into - yet.

Posted 1 year ago #
(Grip Games) Jakub Mikyska
Member

I believe that in regards to the minis' reputation, damage has already been done and it is going to be hard, if not impossible, to undo it. Maybe the best step for Sony would be to stop branding these games "minis" and have them stand among the other games as "equals" and lower price tag compensating for usually lower game experience or playtime...

Posted 1 year ago #
FuturLab
Member

Sony always play the long game. Giving up on minis in its first year isn't their style. All the platform needs is for small, boutique developers to find their footing making high quality original games. It just needs time for a developer to create a minis game that becomes a killer app for the platform. Then the words on people's lips will be 'minis come of age' rather than 'minis are a waste of time' </optimistLookingToMakeTheKillerApp>

Posted 1 year ago #
(Grip Games) Jakub Mikyska
Member

That's right, but since the sales of minis games are nowhere close to making the developers rich and retire, the safe way for most is to take successful games from other platforms and port them over to minis. Creating an original game that meets the hight expectations of PSP games, requires a lot of money. Maybe the best thing for minis would be if Sony introduced a similar "Pub funding" model for small games, just like they have with PS3 download games. If we could take six months to create a fantastic game and be sure that Sony will compensate us, if the sales aren't good, we wouldn't hesitate.

Posted 1 year ago #
Takao
Member

I know you guys probably aren't going to like this given you're all small indie guys, but the Minis need some big names. Look at the top sellers, Monopoly and Tetris. Both very well established brands. Look at the most anticipated upcomming Minis title, Pac-Man CE. All of those games are simply ports of Mobile/iPhone releases. I think if we had more big names on the platform, you'd get more general interest in Minis, which in turn could help out the smaller guys like you.

In the short term, that means more ports. Sony should get Square Enix to port all of their mobile catalog to the platform, same with Capcom, Level 5, and Sony's own mobile titles. By doing this you're going to get people accustomed to the idea of low priced bite sized games. "Hey, this 2D Ratchet & Clank is really cool, any other similar Minis like it?". Putting brand name titles will get PSP and PS3 owners attention, get them into the Minis section, and get them used to bite sized games. Once they've built a market, that's when original titles should flourish. At the very least, it's better than Sony's current offerings on the Minis platform which are seemingly only hurting the brand.

Posted 1 year ago #
volcane
Member

It certainly couldn't hurt to have more mainstream brands made into PSP mini games. It would be particularly good to see the AAA developers create PSP-specific versions of their IPs that take advantage of the capabilities/constraints of the PSP platform and aren't just straight ports.

id Software did something similar with Doom 3 on the iPhone. There was never any chance of simply porting the full PC Doom 3 game to the iPhone of course, so id created a platform-specific version of the game that took advantage of the iPhone platform hardware & touchscreen, designing a mobile iteration of Doom 3 that was it's own unique experience. They did similar things with Doom RPG for the traditional java-based mobile phone platform.

We know that the PSP supports some pretty amazing gaming content (God of War etc) and there are loads of minis already that have fantastic production values (Age of Zombies, Monsters Probably stole My Princess, Coconut Dodge etc) and are exceptional technical achievements (Freekscape, Tehra, Rocket Racing etc).

I think Sony would now benefit from increasing public awareness of the quality & value for money of the minis program and adoption/support of the minis program by big name brands would be a tremendous help!

Posted 1 year ago #
JeremyR
Member

Well, I think that ship has sailed, though. Sony has pretty much lost every major Western publisher, at least in terms of the PSP (even before the 3DS was announced). If it ever really ever had them (the iD guy pretty much constantly badmouthed the PSP since day one).

Even EA, which has seen probably the best success in terms of minis (Tetris and Monopoly) isn't exactly racing to move over more of its iPhone/mobile stuff.

That said, I just don't understand the head of SCEA, he himself, about a month ago, badmouthed the minis program in an article over on Gamasutra. Saying he didn't think people wanted games like this.

Indeed, that seems to be the whole basis of the new ad campaign for the PSP in the US (which is pretty cringe-inducing). "Step Your Game Up"

But at the same time, he's delusional, because to what, exactly? Since 3rd parties have basically dropped or scaled back support, you're left with the PSP's back catalog (which they've begun reprinting, priced at $9.99). Which is okay for new customers, but what about new content for those of us that have had a PSP for years and years?

Basically we have 4-5 Sony titles a year, plus a whole bunch of localized JRPGs. Which is good if you like JRPGs (which I do), but at the same time, I want a little more variety than that. Which is where the Minis should come in nicely. But SCEA doesn't seem to think so.

Posted 1 year ago #
volcane
Member

Perhaps we need SCEE to lead the charge on this, as they seem to be more supportive of the Minis program?

Posted 1 year ago #
FuturLab
Member

@volcane

minis is a SCEE initiative, with the US following suit (perhaps begrudgingly at this point...).

What minis is doing as a platform is fantastic already, giving people like us a way to take our ideas onto console, with an opportunity to escalate our efforts up to full PSP / PSN / PS3 titles if successful. No other platform offers this, and providing tech support and the QA process for free is awesome. I don't think we can ask much more from Sony regarding minis until there are some killer apps available; games that are worthy of the front page of EDGE as an example of originality/breakthrough new talent.

There's no reason why a wholly original title couldn't be developed with a low budget - the iPhone has loads of them. Developers just need to look at the limitations of the platform, and think creatively within those limitations. If that means a game that can't take longer than a month to build, then design a game that takes a month to build. There are thousands of free online Flash games out there that took a day to build, and many of these types of games have never been on a console. Take Coconut Dodge as an example - insanely simple mechanics, to the point of being easy to dismiss as too simplistic for PSP users, but the reviews have been great because these simple addictive mechanics don't exist on the platform in any great number - the PSP is full of cut down AAA titles. Sales of Coconut Dodge haven't been wonderful, but we've made back our investment already.

At this point, there will be people out there reading about our story with Coconut Dodge, moving from Flash into PSP, and they'll have awesome ideas they want to bring to PSP too, and since we've made the transition so publicly, they'll be willing to make the same move.

So, judging minis this critically in its first year is premature in my opinion, and I wouldn't be surprised if this time next year Sony put a lot more fuel behind minis, because the choice and quality will be there. You can bet Mediatonic will have something awesome planned for their follow up to Monsters (Probably) Stole My Princess, and we've got three exciting ideas we're pursuing.

To developers that want to see the minis platform grow and flourish: What you give is what you get, so risk an original idea on the platform. The first truly original minis game is going to get a ton of press.

My suggestion to gamers that want to see better games given more support is to shout as loudly as you can about how fun and value for money the current crop of games are. Word of mouth is one of the most powerful tools at your disposal in this connected world.

Posted 1 year ago #
(Grip Games) Jakub Mikyska
Member

A great unknown is the Playstation Plus. Subscribers will get two older minis for free every month. Judging from the first choices, some of the best minis will be there (Fieldrunners, Age of Zombies, Blast Off and Alien Zombie Death). This may play a critical role in changing people's mind about minis as they will for sure play some of the best minis every month.

Hopefully they won't feel that two is already enough :-)

Posted 1 year ago #
FuturLab
Member

Good point :)

Posted 1 year ago #
Carson
Member

very good point about PlayStation Plus, Jakub, I think its going to be something almost every PlayStation 3 owner is going subscribe to (I know I will),
so it will surely have an effect on minis.

as you said, with some of the best minis available free of charge, it will raise awareness about something that remains unpopular to the average PlayStation user.

we will have yet to see how it affects sales though, I have a strong feeling that it will negatively impact sales, simply because people are now getting them for free, and will fear that if they buy one, it might be wasted money because it could be the next free mini. In other words, "I'll just wait until its free on PlayStation Plus"

so I feel that, while it definitely will help the minis gain momentum in the mainstream market, the developers of minis may suffer sales a little bit, too,
we'll just have to see how it all works out. (I'm not sure how much Sony compensates the developers who put their minis on PlayStation Plus, if they even do at all, it might actually end up benefiting them)

Posted 1 year ago #
Takao
Member

Well it looks like ratings are making it into PS3 firmware 3.4.

Posted 1 year ago #
blacklabgames
Member

"Subscribers will get two older minis for free every month"

Hmmm, I missed that. Is there anything in this for the developer??

I also wanted to back up what James said about miniS being a "gateway" to console development. Without miniS, I can't imagine I'd be developing for Sony platforms - as much as I've always wanted to. However now it's possible, with a modest investment in hardware and a bit of effort, I've got a game finished that I'm really proud off, that (I think) works well as on a handheld, and will be available for people to play soon.

Having been through the process, I'm keen to get to work on my next game, and I'm thinking it will be an original/exclusive mini. I can do that because my overheads are low. EA can't because they have to answer to there shareholders ahead of everybody else, and they need huge margins to cover costs.

Posted 1 year ago #
(Grip Games) Jakub Mikyska
Member

I don't think that almost everybody is going to purchase PS Plus. Judging from the reactions of the people at the PlayStation Blog, a lot of them do not find the value in it. PS Plus is also not available for PSP-only users, which is probably a good thing (from minis' developers perspective).

Anyway, PS Store now has ratings. One of the features I was afraid of :-) It seems that there is no way to organize the content based on the ratings, which takes a lot away from this functionality. Let's see how the minis are standing.

Posted 1 year ago #
Solo the Hutt
Member

i read somewhere that PS3 owners can rate the games , but not PSP-only owners.
Which (if true) doesnt seem fair. Seems screwed up actually.

Posted 1 year ago #
volcane
Member

Did anyone else hear the big Sony/Valve announcement at E3? Valve are bringing their Steam platform to the PS3 (Portal 2 will be the first game to run on the PS3).

This is a massively important development IMHO because Steam brings with it hardcore gaming attributes that Valve game players are already very used to on PCs, such as storing saved games in the cloud, having your game state follow you between machines, and (the most important) community produced content (i.e. "mods"). Valve has always said that they want to get to a point where you pay once for a game and then you choose whichever platform you want to play on, when you want to play it; beit a PC, console, iPod, whatever.

Time will tell, but I think this has the chance of being an interesting turning point for smaller indie developers who want to have success in the Sony ecosystem. Valve games traditionally have a HUGE mod following on the PC, with incredible community support and indie content. I think the deal with Valve is a reassuring indication that Sony is starting to take a more mature attitude towards indie development and (hopefully/eventually) community-made content.

Coupled with the Minis program, I think the Sony gaming platform seems to be finally coming of age - and one sign of this is that they are starting to support the smaller/indie developers. Who would of thought it, given Sony's previous historical antipathy towards the homebrew gaming scene?

Posted 1 year ago #
volcane
Member

Here's a nice trailer: Portal 2 on PS3/PC/Xbox

Posted 1 year ago #
Takao
Member

Valve is only bringing Steamworks, their Steam community to the PS3, and not the actual Steam platform.

Posted 1 year ago #

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