Hi all,
Following the slightly painful review for Ace (thanks for covering it anyway!) I just wondered how universal the issues are with difficulty?
How far have people got with the game, and after how many minutes or hours of play?
To give you an idea it probably took me a couple of days to get through the game on Easy and about 15 hours to get through the game on Elite (after I learned the attack patterns, which weapons to pick up when, etc.).
Please add your comments! :)
15 hours?! ROFLMfAOOL. That's so much time for a mini!
Hey, we aim to offer value for money. ;)
BTW, I've recorded a 'Rookie Level 1' play through today, which shows people just how to clear the first level without too much trouble.
TBH it's not so hard even if you just spam the fire button to clear the level without picking up any power ups (not the case on Elite!). Getting out of the way of shots is all you need to worry about (OK, and maybe your finger speed). :)
I'll let you know here and on the blog once the video is up.
Yeah, an Elite playthrough may last 5 minutes longer due to the bosses' extended health bars. Otherwise the level speed is constant as the scroll speed is constant. 30 minutes max! :)
Uploading a level 1 play through guide to Youtube now. More news once it's up there!
Okay, I have played about an hour of Ace Armstrong now, some Elite and some Rookie, and I can definitely say that Elite is on the level of arcade Gradius III; i.e., I can't reach the end of the first stage on Elite. My best scores are:
Elite: 1839
Rookie: 5197
On Rookie, I got somewhere in the middle of Stage 2, enough so that I could see the chompy-chompy taking up about half the screen, but what really killed me repeatedly in Stage 2 was the fact that I could not tell what was an obstacle and what was harmless background. Thus, I don't know if I should be avoiding X or Y, and one of the two kills me.
In both modes, I found it nearly impossible to fire while trying to use the Recycl-O-Ray's suck function. If I did manage it, my rate of fire dropped to the point of being nearly useless, and more often than not, I would happen to let go of the O button by accident and thus render the entire effort in vain. I also tried to play the game with the PSP flat on a surface while I pounded the buttons with my index and middle fingers. This did not help as much as I had hoped, because my firing action was being performed primarily by my forearm, which meant I still had a chance of accidentally letting go of the O button.
I think the reason I was able to reach the end of the stage in Rookie while most people can't is that I can fire more rapidly than average. However, this was still a problem for me, because it shook the screen severely, resulting in several deaths from enemy bullets that I couldn't see due to all the shaking. This is why I wanted autofire! My rate of fire is likely what allowed me to survive even though I was almost never using the Recycl-O-Ray; I believe I was only able to grab a power-up at the very beginning of the stage (the first 3-way shot cloud) and at the very end of the stage (that final power shot cloud).
I think that, with a terrible lot of practice, I could probably reach the end of Stage 2 after dying enough times to figure out what is an actual obstacle and what isn't. However, I have no confidence in ever making it to the end of the game due to my inability to fire while sucking in a cloud, which the Laughing Jackal guys say is key to the game.
Incidentally, Rookie is significantly easier than Elite. I couldn't tell if there are differences in enemy placement mainly because I was killing lots of things before they came on screen in Rookie.
Update feature wishlist:
1. configurable controls; it would be nice if the suck button were separate from the Recycl-O-Ray fire button, too
2. autofire, at least in Rookie
3. slightly smaller hitbox; it's difficult to tell sometimes if something is going to miss you or graze you, and when it grazes you, you die (incidentally, I must also say I was a bit ticked off at blowing up on Stage 1 because I grazed a freaking shrub)
4. obstacles distinguishable from harmless objects (easy way of doing this: darken the harmless ones a little--speaking of screen objects, are the blurry foreground objects obstacles, too? I avoided them and probably ran into other stuff because of that)
I'm also confused about one of the power-up weapons. I've seen a 3-way shot, a power shot, a shotgun blast, and a fourth one which seems to do nothing. Seriously, I had a fully filled Recycl-O-Ray meter, no idea what I had sucked up, but the O button fired absolutely nothing, and so I crashed into the guys I was trying to shoot. What was I supposed to do with this fourth weapon?
As it stands, I agree with JeremyR's review score. This is a game I will play to try to better my performance, but I don't think I'll be able to enjoy it. :( Doing well for me in this game takes too much luck (not accidentally canceling the suck function, not accidentally getting grazed by a bullet that I may not see due to the screen shakes, not accidentally running into an obstacle that I don't know is an obstacle) and not enough of my actual skill. Mind you, I still like the game, with its unique style, decent level design (that I have seen), and interesting bosses (the one that I have seen), but it's bittersweet.
I would really like to see how well a true shoot'em-up master performs on this game, though. Maybe all I need to do is watch that video. . . .
Edit: Okay, I've watched the video. Hadn't realized it only shows Stage 1, which is what I can already do. However, I have no idea how you're able to fire at that rate while sucking in a cloud (incidentally, I fire at about twice your standard rate).
Played for about another hour, maybe a little more. This time, I had the PSP hooked up to my TV to avoid the shaking screen problem. Note to anyone who does this: if you forget to switch your TV to Game Mode, you'll die a lot from crashing into things, because you'll be letting go of the D-pad or analog nub juuuuust a little too late. New high scores:
Rookie: 11833
Pro: 5375
No new high score in Elite (best I managed was ~1450), but I reached the boss fight on my final life. Died quickly. On Rookie and Pro, I reached Stage 2. After multiple runs partway through Stage 2 on Rookie (I got inside the Klingon battlecruiser thing), I have concluded that my awful skill at avoiding those damned drifting asteroids is what is killing off my lives. It isn't that I can't tell what's harmless and what isn't; nothing is harmless. You just have to memorize which asteroid formations are coming when. And, since the rocks pretty much all look the same to me, I'm not really able to do that (short of videotaping an attempt and then watching it over and over). My rate of fire is of no help; being able to suck clouds while shooting would be of no help. It's just a case of not letting your whale get hit by the rocks. But those are big rocks with very little breathing (yes, in space) room.
What is ultimately stopping me from trying further, though, is that by the end of the play session, my right wrist felt like it had been pulverized. I don't have a spare, so I had to quit. Playing the game a lot would probably let me get further, but I physically can't play the game a lot.
Regarding my update feature wishlist from my previous post, the first 3 still stand. My rate of fire drops to a mere 2 shots per second when I'm sucking in a cloud, and configurable controls would make me actually able to use your game's primary distinguishing feature. The fourth wishlist item, though, is just "Stage 2 is really, really hard." I'd like to replace that #4 with:
4. Implement additional credits given based on hours of play (so that people who want to actually see the end of the game can eventually do so, even if it takes 20 hours of play to earn enough credits).
5. Enable stage select mode, so people can practice the stages they have reached. If I could actually reach Stage 5, I would not want to have to play for a half hour every time I wanted to try practicing Stage 5.
Al, you wrote earlier, "I'm no uber-gamer." I don't think you realize how good you are at shoot'em-ups! If you can 1CC Ace Armstrong, I'm pretty sure you can take down arcade Gradius III and the R-Type games with ease. Your game, assuming Stage 1 is the easiest part of the game, is one of the hardest shoot'em-ups I've ever played. At one time, I was able to survive in Gradius V without losing a life until Stage 4. I don't think I even have the stamina to reach your Stage 4.
In conclusion, your game is definitely not for the masses. Pricing it high may have been a good move; it's sort of analogous to the premium you have to pay to be a hardcore shooting game fan who imports his stuff. Your game may have been a better fit for the Dreamcast than Minis, or perhaps the Japanese XBLA.
Hi onmode-ky,
First up - wow, thanks for the great input! I really appreciate the time and effort you've gone to - you didn't have to do that, so it's really nice to see. :) Thanks again.
So, the wish list is:
1 - Control Config,
2 - Autofire (probably the most important for you!)
3 - Smaller hitbox
4a - Way to pick out non-collision objects. We already have this - if something has a thick black outline it will hurt you - if it doesn't it won't, therefore the foreground (blurred) objects can't hurt you and on stage 2, only asteroids that appear on the same 'plane' as Ace's ship will hurt - the rest are either background (or foreground) art and can be ignored safely! You are basically at the end of level 2 BTW!
4b - That's an interesting idea which I'll bear in mind. Not sure if we could implement this in a Mini, but I like it (Ikaruga style, kinda!)
5 - Again, a good idea.
Thanks again for all the hard work. I'd buy you a beer if I could! ;)
Heh, I'll take an orange juice. :) I actually don't drink alcoholic beverages. Makes the game even harder to play!
I would go with configurable controls as most important to me. If I could get the power-ups more easily/often, I wouldn't have to fire as fast, which would a) make the screen easier to see and b) keep me from wearing out my hand so quickly.
Regarding non-collision objects, I did discover that foreground (blurry) objects were safe, if also a nuisance for obscuring things that would actually kill the ship. And, I discovered that just about everything else in Stage 2 was dangerous. :) Incidentally, after looking for the LJ blog post that discussed the first 3 stages, I realized that I'd actually gotten into Stage 3 (Rookie), inside the Klingon battlecruiser; apparently, Stage 2 doesn't end with a boss fight. For me, it just, uh, ended with 2 deaths in a row. . . .
Yes, a ceiling-mounted arm zipping across the screen from left to right was what killed my last life that time that I got to Stage 3.
By the way, I take back what I said earlier, "This is a game I will play to try to better my performance, but I don't think I'll be able to enjoy it." It's not unenjoyable. But, there is a bit of a Pyrrhic feeling to success in the game, rather than all-out euphoria.
Oh, here's an idea that may be easier to implement for additional credits than tracking hours played: track the number of times the player loses a final life. So, maybe a new credit for every 50 full games played or something. Perhaps also add a weighting factor tied to which stage was the one where the final life loss occurred, so that someone who kept reaching Stage 5 wouldn't be waiting 20 minutes times 50 games for another credit.
volcane
Member
This is a fascinating discussion thread :-) Both Al and onmode-ky are clearly awesome SHMUP players!
I can't wait for the game to be released in the EU so that I can have a play! Unfortunately my own "skill requirement/difficulty level" comfort zone is roughly at Flying Hamster's hard mode, so I suspect that I'm going to struggle with Ace Armstrong's brutal challenge.
The great news for Laughing Jackal is that Ace Armstrong is forever going to be the metric against which the difficulty of future Mini games will be measured (or indeed any PSP game - or perhaps even any SHMUP on any platform?).
Example review of a random future Mini: "Oh boy, this was a tough Mini to beat. However, it wasn't as tough as Ace Armstrong, released back in 2010. Remember that one?! Damn that was a tough game!"
No one is going to forget Ace Armstrong in a hurry! ;-)
Both Al and onmode-ky are clearly awesome SHMUP players!
I'd say you have that half right. I make no claim to being a high-level player, but rather somewhere in the middle. Now, this guy is a high-level player: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyWFV1VBmok (Gradius II "gun wall" footage).
I'm curious, what other Minis are considered very hard? Is Ace Armstrong the first one that garnered such a reputation?
By the way, Al, you may get some more sales if you post about the game at http://shmups.system11.org/, which seems to be a forum where some serious shoot'em-up players hang out (no, I'm not a member). That was the site where I saw people debating about counterstopping DariusBurst (i.e., scoring so high that the score counter stops because it has a hard limit of 100 million points, which is more than twice my best score). You'd also be able to get feedback on the game from a completely different (but uncommon) kind of player from what you get here.
I guess it's good to be remembered, whatever the reason, right? ;)
The winners of the Darwin Awards would probably like to have a word with you.
volcane
Member
I'm curious, what other Minis are considered very hard? Is Ace Armstrong the first one that garnered such a reputation?
I found the final hard levels in Break Quest to be utterly beyond my skills, especially with the faster ball modes/power-ups. The whole game isn't hard of course, but those last levels and the high-speed ball modes were wickedly evil...
I've reached the Stage 3 boss (in Rookie; my high score is now a little over 13,300), but I can't make a dent in him before I'm systematically killed. There seems to be only one small period of time during his attack pattern when he's vulnerable, and, sadly, I can't stay alive until then to make an attack, so I have no power-up when it comes (I haven't found the safe position when he tosses out those four burst mines; speaking of safe positions, I can't figure out where you're supposed to be when one of his parts comes in from the left side of the screen while a gear-enemy comes up from below, at the only safe spot onscreen). So, he finishes off my last life after I've taken off maybe just 1/5 of his life bar.
I still die several times in Stage 2, as there are some spots where I just can't find the safe position among the asteroids. But, I'm also getting killed in Stage 2 every now and then where there are some of those groups of puny ships; sometimes, they fire before they're on screen (or maybe right when they come onscreen), and with the chompy-chompy taking up the whole left half of the screen, there's just not enough time to get out of the way of the incoming fire.
Also, there's a definite bug in the game: sometimes, I'll try to suck in a power-up cloud, only to find that I have a full power-up meter but no actual power-up weapon. That really sucks, and it's happened to me multiple times. I'd also like to make an enhancement request: give some sort of visual and/or aural indicator when the power-up is done being sucked in and is ready for use. I often get no power-up because I apparently let go just a little too early.
After this much time with the game, I do like it more than I did at the beginning, but, like fellow crazy-hard shoot'em-up Gradius III, Ace Armstrong is not one of my preferred games to play when I'm in a shoot'em-up mood. Making progress in the game just takes too long (the stage select practice option would really help). Of course, in Elite mode, making progress in the game simply doesn't exist for me. :) I just gave up trying to make it to Stage 2 there.
Hi onmode-ky,
Sorry for not replying sooner - been away from civilisation all weekend and didn't have any service on my iphone. ;)
Thanks again for the feedback. I'm pleased to hear you're starting to make better progress and it's even more pleasing to see that you're noticing some of the cool level design shining through. Level 2 is actually pretty epic in terms of the asteroid patterns.
I'm hoping to capture some level 2-3 footage today at some point although we may not release this until after the SCEE release date (6th Oct); I'll check with the powers that be on that one. :)
BTW, the safe zone for level 3 you're trying to find is by sitting immediately above the buzzsaw scumbag as he appears and following him up as you maintain a tiny distance above him. It's tight, but there are tighter squeezes in level 2 (at least on the 'recommended' path through the asteroids!
@ evanac
Hey evanac,
I think more people will buy it if there is a walktrough for all the levels. ;)
didn't have any service on my iphone.
Sounds like you should be in our American TV commercials for Verizon's "There's a map for that" anti-iPhone/AT&T campaign.
I rather like Level 3's stage design, but I could really do without those asteroids in Level 2. :) Don't you realize that the odds of successfully navigating an asteroid field are approximately 3720 to 1?
I hope for better odds of getting a patch released with at least some of my wishlist bullet points.
@onmode-ky
Never tell me the odds:)
I might just get this game to see if I can beat it.
I've managed to reach Stage 4, though I quickly ran out of lives once there (I'm actually not sure how I ended up with those lives, as I was down to my last life just before I beat the Stage 3 boss). It was kind of harrowing beating the Stage 3 boss, since I once again got killed (thus losing my power-up) before his weak point was exposed. But, I managed to get his pattern down, survive multiple cycles of his attacks, and finally take him out.
New (Rookie) high score: 23413.
I think I'll stop playing until a stage select mode is available, though. I'd rather not have to work my way to Stage 4 just to learn it; it's simply too exhausting just to get that far! By the end of the game, my hands were shaking so much you couldn't count how many fingers I had.
What's the highest non-Jackal score you guys know of, Al?
P.S. I said in an earlier post that I didn't think I had the stamina to reach Stage 4. Well, I did it, but it was possible only because Rookie mode seems to give out bonus lives during gameplay (not sure for what reasons). Still, I definitely don't have the stamina to reach Elite mode's Stage 4.
HiddenAway
Member
@onmode-ky
I'll confirm my high score later but I have reached stage 5 on Rookie. I seem to recall just barely toppling 40,000 and second place. Stage 5 is very tricky but I'm trying to get a decent run through 1-4 without losing too many lives (stage 1 must be without loss of life or I restart there and then :P)
I dare not tread into Pro/Elite yet though.
I believe there's an extra life after every boss (I seem to get 2 when getting past asteroid mutt :-)).
This game is
TUFF
AS
NAILS.
I'd be in great support of an update to loosen the difficulty, and to add an autofire option. I played it for half an hour and gave up because it's just too unforgiving for me :(
The production values are nice, so it'd be a shame if lesser mortals (normal human beings) couldn't play through the game :p
As an aside, Paul from BlackLabGames offered to test our new shoot 'em up, which got me thinking.
I reckon it's probably a good idea to create a bit of a union between us minis developers - we all have devkits, so we could all test each other's games.
I come from a web background, where knowledge and tips are shared as a matter of course. Game development seems to be a different kettle of fish from what I've gathered, but I reckon it's in everyone's interest to share tips on making the best games possible for the platform - boost the love.
What do other devs think? I should probably stick this in another thread...
Cheers!
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